Indians Wear Headdresses, Right?

Armbiter of Good Fanfiction Join date: 2009-07-21

Reepicheep-chan wrote:

Jeez, sounds like a lot of people are reading what you wrote, elf. Bravo.

ETA: I am preeeeety sure that by posting a work on devART you are automatically consenting to other devART users putting those automated thumbs wherever the hell they want. I would bet that is in the EULA (or whatever the equiv is) somewhere.

Not really-ish. I had hoped this would leak into the general DA population through News, and then spark some real discussion, but it's mostly just my watchers commenting. (I have almost 1900) Which, I guess is a positive point, since so far the arguments saying that I've opened them up to hatespeech are completely false.

Also, regarding the slander stuff, I've been checking DA's policies, especially since some artists have said along the lines of "I'm going to ask a mod to remove my thumb from your article" and it's the same really non-specific "don't harass people" lines in their ettiquite policy. It could really go either way if a mod decides that direct examples are considered harassment. Knowing DA's track record for flip-flopping on issues of taste and opinion, it's about a 50/50.

Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:04 am

Sakurelf wrote:

Even if my article was littered with fluffy bunnies and hugs, someone is going to be ruffled up because I'm discussing an uncomfortable topic. For anyone. So if I didn't use real examples, I assume the would have picked on my "tone" explaining things like residential schools and the Indian Act.

...The thing is, this is not a "tone" argument. You are absolutely right that people would have been offended and found something to criticize regardless of what you said or how you presented the issue, because nobody likes being called out on racism. But at the same time, why even open yourself up to that criticism? Why leave any thread hanging for people who you know are going to be grasping at any thread they can? And really, how else are your readers supposed to take your admonishment to "get permission," when you didn't even bother, other than an as hypocrisy?

Honestly, I think not even trying to get these artists' permission does detract from your (otherwise excellent) article. As I tried to explain in your draft thread of this, there is a world of difference between using cultural symbols (which belong to no one) and using someone's personal property, their creative work which is protected by copyright and belongs solely to them. Of course, you can react to art any way you want--you can write about the work without reproducing it. But you've gone a step beyond simply reacting, to incorporating the entirety of someone's work into your own work. And yes, artists do have the right to control the distribution of their work. And from my brief search, it looks like that's Deviantart's official policy too (though I admit I am clueless as to how rigid they are in enforcing their rules).

The most productive course of action here would have been to privately contact those artists, and explain your position. They may very well have been more open to your criticism (many people react to criticism differently in a private message than being blindsided with a public dissection of their work) and agreed to be a part of your article. Then you win--you get to embed specific examples, and you've followed your own advice, and no one can shoot down your argument for being hypocritical. Of course, more likely the artists still would have thrown hissy fits, and at that point you could have proceeded as you did. But you didn't even give them the chance.

You may be fighting the good fight, but again, intent is not magic. Wink

And personally I do get frustrated when I see someone trying to deconstruct racism and do the right thing, but going about it in an unproductive way. And that may be the case for a lot fence-sitters, who see your point but aren't going to stick their necks out for someone who seems blase about stirring up controversy. Frankly, not asking the artists' permission was hypocritical. And from what you've posted here, I can't see any rational reason for not asking. *shrug*

Armbiter of Good Fanfiction Join date: 2009-07-21

Quote:

But you've gone a step beyond simply reacting, to incorporating the entirety of someone's work into your own work. And yes, artists do have the right to control the distribution of their work.

I will note, as I explained to the artists: Thumbnails are not a violation of copyright. They do not reproduce the artwork in any way, they only link to the actual piece as published by the artist, in their gallery, in a public space. (As well, thumbnails are limited to mature content tags, and so the preview images don't show up when the end-user has mature content switched off)

This is neither reproduction nor distrubution of the art itself, only linking to it. There is absolutely no copyright claim to be made, unless DA decides to change its policy regarding thumbsharing.

Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:24 am

Ok, good on that point. I misunderstood how Deviantart linking works (I admit that my use of the site is pretty superficial). That said, I still think it was unproductive to cite specific works without trying to contact the artists beforehand. *shrug*

Armbiter of Good Fanfiction Join date: 2009-07-21

Owlz: I did want to link you this, though, stemming from your other post up there.

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Interesting to learn that the Navajo nation has trademarked their name. It's certainly not the same as claiming copyright to cultural symbols, and it doesn't answer the meta-question of "who do I ask permission?/How?/Why?" but I think it does show some pretty clear magical intent to those who think First Nations people don't care / aren't aware about use of their stuff.

Sporkbender Join date: 2010-01-20

Owlish wrote:

Ok, good on that point. I misunderstood how Deviantart linking works (I admit that my use of the site is pretty superficial). That said, I still think it was unproductive to cite specific works without trying to contact the artists beforehand. *shrug*

I'm pretty sure that Sakurelf's article would be covered by Fair Use regardless. While it may not be entirely productive, I'm pretty sure that the people making an issue of it would find something to attack the article for.

Hot and Botherer Join date: 2009-06-10

Hawaiian Shirt wrote:

edit: Why in the world do people jump to suing so quickly? Is there some chromosome that prevents people from realizing that others have the same rights to free speech as they do?

The whole suing business is something I mostly see in English-speaking contexts, the US more so than the UK.

Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:25 am

Sakurelf wrote:

Owlz: I did want to link you this, though, stemming from your other post up there.

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Interesting to learn that the Navajo nation has trademarked their name. It's certainly not the same as claiming copyright to cultural symbols, and it doesn't answer the meta-question of "who do I ask permission?/How?/Why?" but I think it does show some pretty clear magical intent to those who think First Nations people don't care / aren't aware about use of their stuff.

Hm, quite interesting! Thanks much for the link. I am really curious to know if the Navajo Nation is pursuing this legally, and I'll definitely keep an eye out. Do let me know if you find anything else please!

I wanted to facepalm so hard at the "Navajo Hipster Panties." The condensation of so many problematic racial and cultural issues, manifested into one fugly set of overpriced underwear. Fucking seriously? At least a lot of those on Deviantart seem to be young and genuinely unaware of what they're doing, but there's absolutely no excuse for the lot of wealthy execs running Urban Outfitters. No excuse at all. I just...I don't understand the tendency to be greedy ignorant asshats. The only thing "Navajo" about these items is the name, so they're not even appropriating anything about the culture, just turning the name into a bland adjective. It's not like it would even be difficult to find Navajo cultural motifs and incorporate them into modern designs, but nope, it's easier to mass-produce the same generic feathered crap and profit on public stupidity. Hell, they could have made a real advertising campaign out of this--support some underprivileged Navajo Nations kids with each pair of earrings! There are so many ways to just bring awareness to this, ways that would benefit your company and they still fail so. fucking. hard. *sigh*

...Yeah, there could be so many implications to the trademark though. I am very glad to see the Navajo Nation taking this step to preserve their cultural integrity, and it's not surprising given that their tribal leadership has been some of the most astute, but the cynic in me wonders how far such a suit would even get in the American legal system, and if it would even be worth their time bringing it to court. Very interesting though.

grmblfjx wrote:

Hawaiian Shirt wrote:

edit: Why in the world do people jump to suing so quickly? Is there some chromosome that prevents people from realizing that others have the same rights to free speech as they do?

The whole suing business is something I mostly see in English-speaking contexts, the US more so than the UK.

Yeah, we Americans tend to be quite preoccupied with our "rights." First Amendment rights in particular, but just about anything someone feels entitled to must be a right, gawdammit and we're not like those godless socialist commies because we have rights.

Sporkbender Join date: 2011-07-04 Age: 20

And now, Forever 21 is selling Native American "inspired" items... as part of a Columbus Day sale. Face, meet palm.

Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:27 am

Kommandar wrote:

And now, Forever 21 is selling Native American "inspired" items... as part of a Columbus Day sale. Face, meet palm.

...No. No. Bad Forever 21, bad.

Armbiter of Good Fanfiction Join date: 2009-07-21

Lapin wrote:

Kommandar wrote:

And now, Forever 21 is selling Native American "inspired" items... as part of a Columbus Day sale. Face, meet palm.

...No. No. Bad Forever 21, bad.

I am almost equally offended by these pleather overalls. Not in a cultural sense, really. It's just a fashion crime.

Armbiter of Good Fanfiction Join date: 2009-07-21

BEAR MARKET MUCH?

Somehow, someone managed to one-up the Urban Outfitterns Navajo Print Flask with an ugly leather monstrosity with an unstable sellers market hand-tooled into it.

You're damn right it's from Etsy.

Sporkbender Join date: 2011-06-21

On the other hand, the bear is adorable.

Shitgobbling pissdrinker Join date: 2009-10-10

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Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:17 pm

Sakurelf wrote:

BEAR MARKET MUCH?

Somehow, someone managed to one-up the Urban Outfitterns Navajo Print Flask with an ugly leather monstrosity with an unstable sellers market hand-tooled into it.

You're damn right it's from Etsy.

I lol'ed at it. I wonder if the designer has the faintest clue that it looks more like a stock market crash than anything any native group has come up with.

VileCorp's Muscly Woman-slave Join date: 2010-01-21

Lady Anne wrote:

I lol'ed at it. I wonder if the designer has the faintest clue that it looks more like a stock market crash than anything any native group has come up with.

... I thought the stock market crash visual was on purpose. Like... Bear Stearns?

Armbiter of Good Fanfiction Join date: 2009-07-21

Oh, Asia. You and your kids who blindly follow American trends.
It's like cultural telephone. By the time you get to the end of the line, you have no idea what you're dealing with anymore.

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Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:17 am

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» Indians Wear Headdresses, Right?
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Indians Wear Headdresses, Right?

Indians Wear Headdresses, Right?

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