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| | Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? | |
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Sakurelf Armbiter of Good Fanfiction


Join date: 2009-07-21
 | Subject: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:57 am | |
| This just recieved a Daily Deviation today. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]I just can't get over the oozing racism here. This generic Injun couple with their feathers and shit is just so tribal and spiritual! Like, wolves and stuff! Let's all sit cross-legged and raise our right hands and say, "HOW." I don't understand why the First Nations equivalent of blackface, or buckteethed FLIED LICE FIVE DORRA asians is considered so beautiful it jerks a few tears. Oh wait, I do, because an oppressed and marginalised culture has been homogenised in the media as a singular group of extinct, exotic animals, whose cultural plumage is just ripe and kitschy enough to amalgamate into whatever art or fashion you feel like. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]"Native American inspired" [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]This link is NSFW [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Tiger Lily is AWESOME! [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Who cares? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Let's not limit this to humans [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Yeah! Feathers 'n Horses 'n shit! [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Or like, real people. Fuck. It's everywhere. I suppose this can be the only result of refering thousands of cultures as people from the wrong fucking continent.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.][You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] |
|  | | Lady Anne NO NOT THE BEEEEES


Join date: 2009-06-12 Age: 35 Location: The land of the fruits and nuts
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:00 am | |
| | Sakurelf wrote: | This just recieved a Daily Deviation today.
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She appears to have a tail. |
|  | | Rabid Badger And This is Why I Need Medication


Join date: 2009-06-11
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:16 am | |
| | Lady Anne wrote: | | Sakurelf wrote: | This just recieved a Daily Deviation today.
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She appears to have a tail. |
That was my first thought. Then I figured "No, it's the back of her dress." Then I blew it up to full-size, and now I don't know what the hell it is.
And what has been seen cannot be unseen.
Also, what's the weird gauzy stuff between them? Either one of them's wearing a sheer lace curtain, or she's pregnant.
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|  | | rae Contributor


Join date: 2009-06-10 Location: computer chair
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:18 am | |
| I like to link these people to this blog. Though I admit, at this point, I mostly just pick on the ones that have women in war bonnets, since that's the most obvious ISSUE. |
|  | | Penguin NO NOT THE BEEEEES


Join date: 2009-07-19 Location: Wild Gray Yonder
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:34 am | |
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|  | | Lapin Knight of the Bleach


Join date: 2009-06-10 Age: 23 Location: Maryland
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:27 pm | |
| Yeah, I've always been extremely uncomfortable with the way First Nations' culture is treated in the U.S., mostly by white people with no concept of why what they're doing is offensive. I mostly keep it to myself, because, well, I'm of Czech descent and what do I know? And these people tend to bring out the "I'm 1/8th Cherokee, so I know, etc." Which kind of feels somehow more offensive. Not sure why.
The art you linked is particularly stupid, and I really don't like how this is coming back as the new exotic. These are mostly stupid kids, but I really don't think that excuses them from not knowing the history of their own country, since most of them appear to be from the U.S. This isn't even old history. A good portion of atrocities committed against the First Nations are still in recent memory, and are still going on.
So, what do we do? I mean, do I just link the kids to that blog?
Oh, and it's supposed to be the back part of her dress, fluttering in the wind, I guess.
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|  | | Cyberwulf NO NOT THE BEEEEES


Join date: 2009-06-03 Age: 30 Location: TRILOBITE!
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:19 pm | |
| | Lapin wrote: | | And these people tend to bring out the "I'm 1/8th Cherokee, so I know, etc." |
Do they know that claiming "1/8 (or 1/16) Cherokee ancestry" started as a way for whites to cover up a black ancestor? |
|  | | Lapin Knight of the Bleach


Join date: 2009-06-10 Age: 23 Location: Maryland
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:25 pm | |
| | Cyberwulf wrote: | | Lapin wrote: | | And these people tend to bring out the "I'm 1/8th Cherokee, so I know, etc." |
Do they know that claiming "1/8 (or 1/16) Cherokee ancestry" started as a way for whites to cover up a black ancestor? |
That is news to me as well, so likely not. |
|  | | rae Contributor


Join date: 2009-06-10 Location: computer chair
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:06 pm | |
| | Cyberwulf wrote: | | Lapin wrote: | | And these people tend to bring out the "I'm 1/8th Cherokee, so I know, etc." |
Do they know that claiming "1/8 (or 1/16) Cherokee ancestry" started as a way for whites to cover up a black ancestor? |
In this case, the ancestor in question might well have been both Black and Cherokee. My professor, in conjunction with another scholar at the Sequoia Center, fairly recently published a paper establishing that well-to-do members of certain tribes, such as the Cherokee, brought their slaves along with them on the Trail of Tears. When they reached OK, they were told that they could not bring slaves with them, so said slaves became full members of the tribe. This is coming up now because there is a movement to disenfranchise black-Cherokee from funds coming in. |
|  | | Lapin Knight of the Bleach


Join date: 2009-06-10 Age: 23 Location: Maryland
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:26 pm | |
| Well, I've read through that blog more and wow. These are things I never even noticed, or thought about too deeply. I knew a lot of these things were offensive, but I had no idea how deeply offensive they truly were. I love how people try to act like she's the one in the wrong for being offended too. It's only a part of her identity, after all. |
|  | | Reepicheep-chan Important Person


Join date: 2009-06-12 Age: 26 Location: IN A SEXY NEW CONDO
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:40 pm | |
| | Lapin wrote: | | "I'm 1/8th Cherokee, so I know, etc." Which kind of feels somehow more offensive. Not sure why. | Assuming you magically are part of a culture by virtue of genetics is a little condescending to the culture, I think. Also it is sort of like saying you are not a racist because you have black friend. Also I am under the impression that pretty much anyone who is 5+ generation American has natives somewhere on their family tree. I have reason to believe that I do and I am white as snowfall. |
|  | | Lapin Knight of the Bleach


Join date: 2009-06-10 Age: 23 Location: Maryland
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:57 pm | |
| Hm. You know, I think I know what it is, the more I read the blog. My family is Czech, but we're not the cool Czech. My particular branch of the family tree is heavily mixed in with the local Roma, to the point it's still recognized. (It is not looked upon in a good light) It's a part of my identity, in a background kind of way. It's not something I think about too much every day.
Except when I see "gypsy" items. Like, Esmeralda from HoND crap. You all know what I'm talking about. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth, this feeling like someone is debasing something that's real for my family. Acting like we're all fortune tellers in bright scarves, etc. Not like Roma are stereotyped like whoa in Europe to this day and have a high rate of alcoholism, poverty and drug use. Not like a good chunk of the culture was lost forever in WWII. I imagine this is similar to how Irish people feel about how the rest of the world treats them like magical leprechaun land.
I'm not like this woman though, I'm fourth-generation and have little cultural connections left in the family. We don't even speak Czech anymore. Her anger runs so much deeper and is justified to the nth. I hope her message reaches some people at least. Especially the headdress thing. Even I knew that was offensive, and I cannot believe people think that is okay. It seems to be mostly hipsters, and aren't they supposed to be all about "respecting other cultures"? They certainly talk about it enough. |
|  | | Nihilist Serial Troll

Join date: 2011-05-02
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:19 pm | |
| | Reepicheep-chan wrote: | | Lapin wrote: | | "I'm 1/8th Cherokee, so I know, etc." Which kind of feels somehow more offensive. Not sure why. | Assuming you magically are part of a culture by virtue of genetics is a little condescending to the culture, I think. Also it is sort of like saying you are not a racist because you have black friend. Also I am under the impression that pretty much anyone who is 5+ generation American has natives somewhere on their family tree. I have reason to believe that I do and I am white as snowfall. |
I remember my Native American friends talking about this with me. They were explaining that it's offensive for someone to say that they're a tiny bit Cherokee because everyone says they are and when they say that it's like they're taking permission to appropriate cultures they don't belong to and offend people who really know what they're talking about. This probably seems a little bit bad too but, most people who claim to be 1/8 Cherokee aren't really in the culture anymore and get white privilege instead. I do know that in my knowledge a person has to claim at least 1/4 Native American ancestry in order to get a Certificate of Indian Blood (CIB) which entitles them to membership of one or more tribes, which allows some benefits and some forms of living in a middle-of-nowhere ghetto and being seen by larger society as something to appropriate.
One of my best friends who is Native American did go to an ivy league school and people DO ask her how to build a teepee, where is her headdress, etc. People even speak in deliberate broken English to her, thinking that she doesn't speak English at all. We took Advanced Placement English together all throughout high school?
As for my ancestry, I really don't know. I'm local-area Hispanic and white and my mother's side denies any native ancestry because they DO see them as inferior. She's a fucked-up nuthead anyway. |
|  | | Lapin Knight of the Bleach


Join date: 2009-06-10 Age: 23 Location: Maryland
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:31 pm | |
| | Nihilist wrote: | | I remember my Native American friends talking about this with me. They were explaining that it's offensive for someone to say that they're a tiny bit Cherokee because everyone says they are and when they say that it's like they're taking permission to appropriate cultures they don't belong to and offend people who really know what they're talking about. |
I can't even imagine what that feels like, or how offended a person can be. From what I do know about reservations, they're not great places to live, and I imagine the kids who do live on them are definitely going to get pissed at some middle-class white kid in the suburbs talking about how their 1/8th blood totally entitles them to claim a part of their identity.
| Quote: | | This probably seems a little bit bad too but, most people who claim to be 1/8 Cherokee aren't really in the culture anymore and get white privilege instead. I do know that in my knowledge a person has to claim at least 1/4 Native American ancestry in order to get a Certificate of Indian Blood (CIB) which entitles them to membership of one or more tribes, which allows some benefits and some forms of living in a middle-of-nowhere ghetto and being seen by larger society as something to appropriate. |
I did not know about the 1/4th thing. (Is actually genuinely interested about how that works) So, only people with a CIB can live on a reservation?
| Quote: | One of my best friends who is Native American did go to an ivy league school and people DO ask her how to build a teepee, where is her headdress, etc. People even speak in deliberate broken English to her, thinking that she doesn't speak English at all. We took Advanced Placement English together all throughout high school?
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She's in an ivy league school. Why in the hell would they think she couldn't speak English? |
|  | | Reepicheep-chan Important Person


Join date: 2009-06-12 Age: 26 Location: IN A SEXY NEW CONDO
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:45 pm | |
| | Nihilist wrote: | | This probably seems a little bit bad too but, most people who claim to be 1/8 Cherokee aren't really in the culture anymore and get white privilege instead. | Definately. You really cannot claim to be part of a minority culture when you are getting white privileges, that would just be bullshit.
I think at least part of the problem is that it is hard for a lot of people to recognise how privileged they are. Like, I am privileged as all hell, but I am in the working class income-wise right now with maybe a fair shot of making lower-middle class eventually. I see people around me all the time who have money and power I could never imagine and I feel kind of shit on by our government and the upper-class who pretty much runs it. So I run into things every day that I would like but cannot afford, or things I can afford eventually but will need to save and sacrifice for, and it is easy to my a game of it and tell people I cannot get something or do something because I am 'poor'. However, that is really disrepectful to people who are actually poor! I never have to worry about not being able to pay the electrical bill or have to wait until payday to get the car fixed or any of the other million things actual poor people have to deal with on a day-to-day basis, after all.
OK, that went completely off the rails there, but I think some of that is applicable to people denying they have white privilege when they totes do. Maybe. |
|  | | Lapin Knight of the Bleach


Join date: 2009-06-10 Age: 23 Location: Maryland
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:52 pm | |
| Okay. No. I commented on the "Embrace" picture. | Quote: | Okay, where do I start? First, I'm going to link you to this blog: mycultureisnotatrend.tumblr.com/ Do me a favor and read through it. If you're not going to, I am just going to explain my point right here, and I really hope you actually take the time to understand what I am trying to tell you. I am not attacking you, first off. I am explaining.
This is racist. This is about as racist as a minstrel show. The feathers, the outfits, all of it. I understand the United States does not do much in the way of education about First Nations cultures, but this current throwback trend of using First Nations as the new "exotic" is not cool. I am sure you had no bad intentions, but that does not make this any less offensive.
I hope you read that blog, which explains my point so much better, and I hope you understand why I said these things. |
I tried to be nice damn it. I tried. Look at the lovely response I received:
| Quote: | Where do *I* start? You need to be very careful throwing around strong words you don't know the meaning to. Do me a favor and look up the definitions of the words you use before you start applying them to people with this "holier than thou" attitude of yours: "Let me educated you, you poor racist [American] bastard!"
First off, racism is defined as "a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others."
Let me break that down for you - just in case you don't understand. Racism is the belief that the inherent difference (i.e. skin color, body shape, etc) between human races define the superiority of one race over the other. Do me a favor and look at her illustration again and tell me that is what you see. Would you still have posted this if you didn't know Cellertria is white?
Second, you may not have realized it, but you just made yourself appear that you have some deep-seated prejudices against Americans. You say how you *understand* how us American's aren't as smart as you because our education system is supposedly not as good as yours. Makes you look hypocritical. Amusing.
Third. I read the blog you linked to, and it seems you have missed the author's point entirely. Since you seem to love making generalizations, I'm not surprised you glossed over the fine details. The author is saying how they don't appreciate how other cultures are trying to exploit their culture and turn it into a trend. In other words, popular [white people] dressing up as "Indians." (Read the blog's introduction).
So, what *exactly* are you trying to say here. White people aren't allowed to create illustrations of other cultures because we're all supposedly racist? What do you want her to paint? A bunch of fat Americans driving a giant SUV through a McDonald's drive through? I bet you wouldn't have objected then. |
You want to play? I can play. This isn't even the artist. I don't know who this is, and Lord knows I shouldn't have responded, but I kept a civil tongue in my head.
| Quote: | To address the first part: I have no idea what race the artist belongs to. These supposed magic powers of mine to detect whiteness through a computer monitor sound a little too unbelievable. My dislike at this comes from the artist using a rather distasteful stereotype. To use a stereotype of a culture, especially one as diverse and varied as First Nations, is disrespectful and yes, racist. I'm sorry you do not see that. To address the second part: I'm glad I amused you by speaking knowledgeably about the system that educated me. "Deep-seated prejudices against Americans". Funny how I have deep-seated prejudices against my own country of origin, the country I've served well and love deeply. Because of how deeply I love my country, I can acknowledge its flaws without insulting it. To address the third part: The blogger doesn't like how her culture is treated as "exotic", "other", or how her entire culture is glossed with the same brush. Neither do I.
I did not say in any way that white people are not allowed to draw other cultures. Do not put words in my mouth. If you are going to draw another culture though, depict it correctly. Do not lean on widely-perpetuated and disrespectful stereotypes. Research is not difficult in this day and age. There are many helpful websites that depict actual First Nations outfits and hairstyles, and provide helpful information about what is appropriate.
To conclude, I do not like how you automatically assumed when I criticized the United States educational system that I was criticizing the whole of the U.S. I do not like how you assumed I was an arrogant foreigner. I do not like that you felt the need to attack me when I have said nor done nothing to you. My comment was addressed to the artist, not you, and I do not like that you felt the need to insert yourself in a conversation that had nothing to do with you. You also made the assumption that I was attacking her, despite my specifically stating I wasn't. Criticism does not equal hatred. You would do well to learn that. |
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|  | | Lurv VileCorp's Muscly Woman-slave


Join date: 2009-06-11 Age: 22
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:40 pm | |
| | Quote: | | Where do *I* start? You need to be very careful throwing around strong words you don't know the meaning to. Do me a favor and look up the definitions of the words you use before you start applying them to people with this "holier than thou" attitude of yours: "Let me educated you, you poor racist [American] bastard!" |
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|  | | Sakurelf Armbiter of Good Fanfiction


Join date: 2009-07-21
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:44 pm | |
| Lapin: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]You just scored a: G, probably an N, and an O! You've almost won! |
|  | | Lapin Knight of the Bleach


Join date: 2009-06-10 Age: 23 Location: Maryland
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:46 pm | |
| | Lurv wrote: | | Quote: | | Where do *I* start? You need to be very careful throwing around strong words you don't know the meaning to. Do me a favor and look up the definitions of the words you use before you start applying them to people with this "holier than thou" attitude of yours: "Let me educated you, you poor racist [American] bastard!" |
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Please notice the restraint I used. It hurt Lurvy, it really did. All of mean-me was screaming "Say it! Just say it!", but thankfully adult-me kept mean-me back.
| Sakurelf wrote: | You just scored a: G, probably an N, and an O!
You've almost won! |
Ooh, what do I win? |
|  | | rae Contributor


Join date: 2009-06-10 Location: computer chair
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:56 pm | |
| It would have been a trip to participate in the harvest festivals of diverse cultures around the world. Unfortunately, the prize has since been appropriated.  Sorry. |
|  | | Sakurelf Armbiter of Good Fanfiction


Join date: 2009-07-21
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:09 am | |
| | Lapin wrote: |
| Sakurelf wrote: | You just scored a: G, probably an N, and an O!
You've almost won! |
Ooh, what do I win? |
Dunno, the right to be a little smugger today? Most likely just shame. Shame in knowing that your opponents are so uneducated that they all use the same predictable arguments. |
|  | | Lapin Knight of the Bleach


Join date: 2009-06-10 Age: 23 Location: Maryland
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:45 am | |
| Damn. I'm still waiting for the smug feeling. Mostly I feel irritation right now and the desire to make her cry like a bitch. Which I'm repressing. Still haven't gotten a response back. Maybe she's done with me.
I'd really like to hear from the artist though. |
|  | | Lady Anne NO NOT THE BEEEEES


Join date: 2009-06-12 Age: 35 Location: The land of the fruits and nuts
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:07 am | |
| One time, I was out driving with a friend and we drove through an Indian reservation. She was looking around, hoping to see a real Indian. She was less than amused when I laughed and pointed out that she's probably met quite a few of them and not realized it, since they're people like anybody else, and in this day and age few wear native attire for daily living, most live in houses/apartments/condos/etc., and most speak English. This includes Native Americans living on reservations.
Even if you did see someone living in a pre-colonization way, in this region they wouldn't live in a teepee, hunt buffalo, or wear a war bonnet. This is California, and there haven't been any bison here in thousands of years, hence no buffalo hunting. There weren't enough large hides to make teepees here, and they wouldn't have been terribly practical in this climate anyway. Around here, native houses were made of local brush, grass, and wood. Feathers were used in ceremonial attire, but not as war bonnets (and warfare was pretty uncommon in this area anyway). Oh, and horses were a European introduction, since the American horses died out thousands of years ago.
I've heard people talk about respecting the Native American culture, and it always makes me want to ask, "Which one?" (When I've asked that question of white people, I often get confused looks; when I've asked it of Native Americans, there's a lot more understanding of the question.) |
|  | | Exodia's Right Leg Shitgobbling pissdrinker


Join date: 2009-08-05 Age: 26 Location: Niggertown, HUAHUEHUAland
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:26 am | |
| | Lapin wrote: | She's in an ivy league school. Why in the hell would they think she couldn't speak English? |
Logic never gets in the way of some good stereotypin'. |
|  | | Sakurelf Armbiter of Good Fanfiction


Join date: 2009-07-21
 | Subject: Re: Indians Wear Headdresses, Right? Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:33 am | |
| | Lady Anne wrote: | I've heard people talk about respecting the Native American culture, and it always makes me want to ask, "Which one?" |
Look at this map of BC. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] See that relatively small area around vancouver that says "Coast Salish**"? Now go up to the star and read all of the tribes that live(d) in that one area.
Who'd have guessed there's more than one!? |
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