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rachel
VileCorp's Muscly Woman-slave
Join date: 2009-07-19
 |  Subject: Re: Finally..... Tue 03 May 2011, 08:37 | |
| | Seule wrote: | | I dunno, Unoriginal, I apologise if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here but what it sounds like you're saying to me is that it's okay to assassinate a sickly old man without a trial... |
Just a quibble: Fifty-four is not old. |
| | | | Penguin
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Join date: 2009-07-19
Location: Wild Gray Yonder
| | Subject: Re: Finally..... Tue 03 May 2011, 11:27 | |
| | Seule wrote: | | I mean, seriously, it's like WHOO WE SUCCESSFULLY ASSASSINATED A RETIRED GENERAL IN HIS HOME |
You see, the thing is... we've got something of a reputation to uphold.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Pictured: An understatement
Now, to be serious for a minute, it's interesting that you used the term "general" for Osama bin Laden. I suppose it's a fitting title for a leader of such a large, militant organization... if you're willing to concede that his brand of terrorism is an act of war, not a merely a crime. He has frequently stated as much himself, so let's run with that.
In war, generals don't get to quit. At least, not until the war is over. Even if they're put out to pasture due to old age, injury or illness, they are still a target for their enemies for what they know. If they're still active, the more effective you are, the bigger a target you are. Take, for example, Erwin Rommel:
| Quote: | | As one of the few generals who consistently fought the Western Allies (he was never assigned to the Eastern Front), Rommel is regarded as having been a humane and professional officer. His Afrikakorps was never accused of war crimes. Soldiers captured during his Africa campaign were reported to have been treated humanely. Furthermore, he ignored orders to kill captured commandos, Jewish soldiers and civilians in all theaters of his command. |
The Allies wanted him dead. Yesterday. It wasn't because he was a terrible human being. If anything, Rommel proved that it was possible to fight a war well with honor, dignity and compassion even when the nation you're fighting for is so utterly unworthy of your service. They wanted him dead because he was incredibly good at fighting wars. The Allies repeatedly acknowledged he was a Pretty Cool Guy and had to squash rumors that Rommel was some sort of superman. They would rather have an incompetent monster to fight than someone tough to beat who would treat their prisoners like human beings. So they tried to assassinate him. Really hard.
So if a nation is at war with an outright scumbag who actually caused significant harm and exults in the slaughter of civilians minding their own business, mercy is the last thing you should expect. Besides, the fact that they solidly confirmed that Osama was hiding at the suspect mansion by watching one of his most trusted couriers moving to and from the site shows that he was, at best, semi-retired.
Killing Osama accomplished two things: It eliminated a black mark against the credibility of the US in the war on terror, and eliminated a powerful -if nothing else- figurehead of the enemy, effectively denying him martyrdom by burying him at sea. It also showed that, while Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters flock to the region to live, fight and die under austere conditions, the leader pushing them to die for their religion was hiding in luxury.
And if he was really semi- or all-the-way retired? Still worth it. A retired general has a military treasure trove of intel locked inside his brain, so any feasible attempt at capturing him would be worth it. If he resists and dies in the attempt, oh well; it's still a win. Semi-retired? Assassinating him eliminates not only a figurehead, but also strategic focus and decades of experience for Al Qaeda. People don't put up millions of dollars to build a compound to protect an expendable fool.
And in the abstract? Revenge isn't justice... so? They're not mutually exclusive, either. It doesn't mean that this wasn't justice simply because Western civilization didn't go through the motions of pretending they could find a jury capable of giving Osama bin Laden a fair trial before sending him to the electric chair. If you think there was a reasonable doubt that Osama bin Laden was not responsible for multiple acts of mass murder, despite his frequent, public claims for credit... I can only say that you're being unreasonable. Even if you want to paint his actions as that of a common thug, rather than acts of war, it sends a clear message that for truly heinous crimes, you will be held accountable, no matter how hard you try to hide.
This is war. Osama was the enemy, and he lost. |
| | | | kleine_kat
VileCorp's Muscly Woman-slave
Join date: 2009-06-11
Age: 32
Location: Lower Countries
| | Subject: Re: Finally..... Tue 03 May 2011, 13:42 | |
| | Penguin wrote: | | Penguin's rather epic article. |
You know, more than any thing shown on TV, more than Obama's carefully rehearsed speech playing over and over in between horrible sitcoms, and despite my own misgivings concerning the whole sordid situation, including burying his corpse at sea (wouldn't you want to hold on to that? For DNA? proof? Gloating power?), you just convinced me that this, killing Osama, was a good thing that will have a positive effect and can be convincingly justified.
I am a very gullable person, but that was an impressive bit of text. |
| | | | TheHedonist
Shitgobbling pissdrinker
Join date: 2009-10-27
Location: Не беда, да да да!
| | Subject: Re: Finally..... Tue 03 May 2011, 21:26 | |
| Twain, as usual, sums up my thoughts far more succinctly than I could.
"I've never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure." - Mark Twain |
| | | | Spotts1701
Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
Join date: 2009-06-11
Age: 32
Location: New Vertiform City
| | Subject: Re: Finally..... Wed 04 May 2011, 03:11 | |
|
Um, Dr. King didn't say that. Some twit on Twitter said it, and it got misattributed.
_________________
My LJ
Gibbs' Rule #16: If someone thinks they have the upper hand, break it.
"Oh, the equipment's guaranteed, but I have my doubts about the stuff inside." - Lt. Commander Montgomery Scott
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| | | | Seule
My Mescaline
Join date: 2009-06-11
Age: 19
Location: Tea & Castle Land
| | Subject: Re: Finally..... Wed 04 May 2011, 12:55 | |
| American accounts of Bin Laden's death have come under intense scrutiny following White House admissions that early official reports claiming Bin Laden had been armed and cowered behind his wife during the assault were false. Bin Laden's wife, earlier said to have been killed, survived and is in Pakistani custody.... A senior ISI official said that Bin Laden's 12-year-old daughter had witnessed her father being killed and confirmed his death. "She said she saw him being shot," said the official. Repeated in other sources, apparently the soldiers came into the room and were blocked by Bin Laden's youngest wife, who they shot in the leg, before shooting the man himself (who was unarmed) in the head in front of his preteen daughter. Apparently this was justified because he "appeared to be reaching for a weapon". But guys, I think that this great article really sums up what most of the rest of the world is thinking about America at the moment (it's actually written by an american, so you can't call bias)... in summary, though; | Quote: | But those who chant "We killed Bin Laden" cannot display their identification with American power so completely and then expect others to understand it as partial. The American military has done many things in this region. Killing Bin Laden is just one of them.
If "they" killed Bin Laden in Abbottabad then "they" also bombed a large number of wedding parties in Afghanistan, "they" murdered 24 Iraqi civilians in Haditha and "they" gang-raped a 14-year-old before murdering her, her six-year-old sister and their parents near Mahmudiyah. If "they" don't want to be associated with the atrocities then "they" need to find more to celebrate than an assassination. Vengeance is, in no small part, what got us here. It won't get us out. |
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| | | | Chris91
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Join date: 2009-06-13
Age: 45
Location: Woburn, Mass., USA
| | Subject: Re: Finally..... Wed 04 May 2011, 13:40 | |
| | Penguin wrote: | | Seule wrote: | | I mean, seriously, it's like WHOO WE SUCCESSFULLY ASSASSINATED A RETIRED GENERAL IN HIS HOME |
You see, the thing is... we've got something of a reputation to uphold.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Pictured: An understatement
Now, to be serious for a minute, it's interesting that you used the term "general" for Osama bin Laden. I suppose it's a fitting title for a leader of such a large, militant organization... if you're willing to concede that his brand of terrorism is an act of war, not a merely a crime. He has frequently stated as much himself, so let's run with that.
In war, generals don't get to quit. At least, not until the war is over. Even if they're put out to pasture due to old age, injury or illness, they are still a target for their enemies for what they know. If they're still active, the more effective you are, the bigger a target you are. Take, for example, Erwin Rommel:
| Quote: | | As one of the few generals who consistently fought the Western Allies (he was never assigned to the Eastern Front), Rommel is regarded as having been a humane and professional officer. His Afrikakorps was never accused of war crimes. Soldiers captured during his Africa campaign were reported to have been treated humanely. Furthermore, he ignored orders to kill captured commandos, Jewish soldiers and civilians in all theaters of his command. |
The Allies wanted him dead. Yesterday. It wasn't because he was a terrible human being. If anything, Rommel proved that it was possible to fight a war well with honor, dignity and compassion even when the nation you're fighting for is so utterly unworthy of your service. They wanted him dead because he was incredibly good at fighting wars. The Allies repeatedly acknowledged he was a Pretty Cool Guy and had to squash rumors that Rommel was some sort of superman. They would rather have an incompetent monster to fight than someone tough to beat who would treat their prisoners like human beings. So they tried to assassinate him. Really hard.
So if a nation is at war with an outright scumbag who actually caused significant harm and exults in the slaughter of civilians minding their own business, mercy is the last thing you should expect. Besides, the fact that they solidly confirmed that Osama was hiding at the suspect mansion by watching one of his most trusted couriers moving to and from the site shows that he was, at best, semi-retired.
Killing Osama accomplished two things: It eliminated a black mark against the credibility of the US in the war on terror, and eliminated a powerful -if nothing else- figurehead of the enemy, effectively denying him martyrdom by burying him at sea. It also showed that, while Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters flock to the region to live, fight and die under austere conditions, the leader pushing them to die for their religion was hiding in luxury.
And if he was really semi- or all-the-way retired? Still worth it. A retired general has a military treasure trove of intel locked inside his brain, so any feasible attempt at capturing him would be worth it. If he resists and dies in the attempt, oh well; it's still a win. Semi-retired? Assassinating him eliminates not only a figurehead, but also strategic focus and decades of experience for Al Qaeda. People don't put up millions of dollars to build a compound to protect an expendable fool.
And in the abstract? Revenge isn't justice... so? They're not mutually exclusive, either. It doesn't mean that this wasn't justice simply because Western civilization didn't go through the motions of pretending they could find a jury capable of giving Osama bin Laden a fair trial before sending him to the electric chair. If you think there was a reasonable doubt that Osama bin Laden was not responsible for multiple acts of mass murder, despite his frequent, public claims for credit... I can only say that you're being unreasonable. Even if you want to paint his actions as that of a common thug, rather than acts of war, it sends a clear message that for truly heinous crimes, you will be held accountable, no matter how hard you try to hide.
This is war. Osama was the enemy, and he lost. |
This. Times ten. |
| | | | Penguin
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Join date: 2009-07-19
Location: Wild Gray Yonder
| | Subject: Re: Finally..... Wed 04 May 2011, 14:52 | |
| | Seule wrote: | | American accounts of Bin Laden's death have come under intense scrutiny following White House admissions that early official reports claiming Bin Laden had been armed and cowered behind his wife during the assault were false. Bin Laden's wife, earlier said to have been killed, survived and is in Pakistani custody.... A senior ISI official said that Bin Laden's 12-year-old daughter had witnessed her father being killed and confirmed his death. "She said she saw him being shot," said the official. |
We're giving Pakistan any credit whatsoever, now?
| Quote: | | Repeated in other sources, apparently the soldiers came into the room and were blocked by Bin Laden's youngest wife, who they shot in the leg, before shooting the man himself (who was unarmed) in the head in front of his preteen daughter. Apparently this was justified because he "appeared to be reaching for a weapon". |
The article you link to contains no such quote.
| Quote: | | But guys, I think that this great article really sums up what most of the rest of the world is thinking about America at the moment |
Okay, let's give it a read, but in the meantime...
| Quote: | | (it's actually written by an american, so you can't call bias)... |
We're a hive mind, now? I'm sorry, I must've missed the last forever of absurdly polarized politics. Just because an American says something you might agree with doesn't mean he or she is not biased. Especially if that particular American is collecting a foreign paycheck.
| Quote: | | But those who chant "We killed Bin Laden" cannot display their identification with American power so completely and then expect others to understand it as partial. The American military has done many things in this region. Killing Bin Laden is just one of them. |
I have a feeling he's not going to bring up all the humanitarian work.
| Quote: | | If "they" killed Bin Laden in Abbottabad then "they" also bombed a large number of wedding parties in Afghanistan, |
Charmingly offered completely devoid of context.
| Quote: | | "they" murdered 24 Iraqi civilians in Haditha |
...No.
| Quote: | | and "they" gang-raped a 14-year-old before murdering her, her six-year-old sister and their parents near Mahmudiyah. |
And the very specific "they" that did that were convicted and sentenced accordingly. Shockingly, America is not okay with gang rape even when the rapists are soldiers.
| Quote: | | If "they" don't want to be associated with the atrocities then "they" need to find more to celebrate than an assassination. |
All of this adds up to a complete non sequitur. It's not a "no true Scotsman" fallacy when we actively investigate and persecute war criminals purporting to act on our behalf. Really, at this point it's like you've lost your original point just to say "Everyone is uncomfortable with American success, so there." |
| | | | Penguin
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Join date: 2009-07-19
Location: Wild Gray Yonder
| | Subject: Re: Finally..... Sat 14 May 2011, 05:19 | |
| [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]| Quote: | | WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A stash of pornography was found in the hideout of Osama bin Laden by the U.S. commandos who killed him, current and former U.S. officials said on Friday. The pornography recovered in bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, consists of modern, electronically recorded video and is fairly extensive, according to the officials, who discussed the discovery with Reuters on condition of anonymity. |
Ha ha. |
| | | | Lady Anne
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Join date: 2009-06-12
Age: 35
Location: The land of the fruits and nuts
| | Subject: Re: Finally..... Sat 14 May 2011, 06:01 | |
| | Penguin wrote: | [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
| Quote: | | WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A stash of pornography was found in the hideout of Osama bin Laden by the U.S. commandos who killed him, current and former U.S. officials said on Friday. The pornography recovered in bin Laden's compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, consists of modern, electronically recorded video and is fairly extensive, according to the officials, who discussed the discovery with Reuters on condition of anonymity. |
Ha ha. |
Hypocrisy, thy name is Osama bin Laden.  |
| | | | Chris91
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Join date: 2009-06-13
Age: 45
Location: Woburn, Mass., USA
| | Subject: Re: Finally..... Sat 14 May 2011, 15:19 | |
| I doubt the Pentagon will be releasing those tapes to the press.  |
| | | | Lady Anne
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Join date: 2009-06-12
Age: 35
Location: The land of the fruits and nuts
| | Subject: Re: Finally..... Sat 14 May 2011, 16:21 | |
| | Chris91 wrote: | | I doubt the Pentagon will be releasing those tapes to the press. |
Anonymously on YouTube, however... |
| | | | Chris91
NO NOT THE BEEEEES
Join date: 2009-06-13
Age: 45
Location: Woburn, Mass., USA
| | Subject: Re: Finally..... Sat 14 May 2011, 16:45 | |
| Good point. |
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