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Mr.Doobie
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PostSubject: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:11 am

And now, Mally, in your honor, a thread were we can debate and discuss (see also: RAEG and wank) about the topic of male circumcision.

You all know the issue.

Where do I fall? Well, I'm a circumcised male, and I really don't give a fuck. I don't feel like not having a foreskin has detracted from my life at all. My sex life is normal and healthy, and my girlfriend is satisfied. So I really don't see the issue. Sure, you could say that the foreskin is very sensitive and adds to sexual pleasure and blah dee blah dee blah. But from my uncircumcised friends, I've also heard that it's a bitch to keep clean. So I figure I haven't really lost out all that much.

I guess you could argue that it's a violation of the childs rights. But, Jesus Christ, with all the other human rights violations going on in the world, you're going to whine about circumcision? It's a fairly standard medical procedure that removes a flap of skin which is next to damn useless. And it's performed on babies who won't even remember the operation until they're older.

Should children have the right to choose if they get circumcised or not? Maybe. Is it a violation of the childs rights? Yeah, I guess. Will I get my own child circumsized? I don't know yet. It just seems like such a minor issue to me, that I really haven't thought about it. Maybe this thread will get me to think about it more. Maybe it will get me to change some of my opinions. But for now, I'm pro-circumcision. If only because none of the arguments from the anti-circumcision camp is able to get my blood boiling.

PS: Another blow to the anti-circumcision camp, is that all the circumcised guys I know IRL really don't give a damn and have healthy sex lives, and healthy lives in general. The only men I hear getting all up in arms against circumcision are on the internet, and many of them talk like they also spend a lot of their E-Lives on Love Shy.
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Bamshalam
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:17 am

I've met a few uncircumcised guys before who were equally as blase about their penises and satisfied with their love lives as you are. It's just a matter of being happy with what you've grown up with.

I would, personally, never circumcise my son (if I were to have one,) specifically because there's really not a good enough reason for me to do it. If they want to when they're older, fine, but it's not my penis or my decision to make.
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SirDixonDongs
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:33 am

dicks itt
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Root Admin
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:34 am

I'll just sit over here and wait for someone to start touching mine.
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SirDixonDongs
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:37 am

congrats dilz your wait is over
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:38 am

hey you jerk me and I'll jerk you
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Lapin
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:48 am

I've always wondered how we even got started with the whole circumsizing thing.
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SlyChild
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:59 am

When dicks are mentioned, it's only a matter of time before Nihilist starts jerking someone off. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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SirDixonDongs
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:00 am

Lapin wrote:
I've always wondered how we even got started with the whole circumsizing thing.

about 7000 years ago in mesopotamia most likely
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Malganis
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:39 am

Mr.Doobie wrote:
And now, Mally, in your honor, a thread were we can debate and discuss (see also: RAEG and wank) about the topic of male circumcision.

Dude, no offense taken, but please don't call me that since it reminds me of Mikey. >_o Thanks a bunch for starting this thread, though; I really mean that.

Quote :
It's a fairly standard medical procedure that removes a flap of skin which is next to damn useless. And it's performed on babies who won't even remember the operation until they're older.

Anatomically speaking, it's not really a 'flap of skin' (flap implying something that is flat and one-dimensional, and, well, flaps). It's more like a fold of skin, with two sides, a shaft-skin side and a mucosa-membrane side, and it's part of the overall penile shaft skin itself. It doesn't fold back when the penis is erect, it just tends to slide back, revealing the glans and mucosal side of itself. Behold! (It does look cooler in a moving image, though.) Here's some of the best photos I've seen on how a restored foreskin works... it's pretty much the same as a natural one.

Also, doing something painful to someone who can't/won't remember it isn't really much of an argument for said action. I'm not saying you're trying to make that into one, just that... it isn't.

Quote :
PS: Another blow to the anti-circumcision camp, is that all the circumcised guys I know IRL really don't give a damn and have healthy sex lives, and healthy lives in general. The only men I hear getting all up in arms against circumcision are on the internet, and many of them talk like they also spend a lot of their E-Lives on Love Shy.

Gotta disagree with you there... I'm on an intactivist forum and I'd say that most of the guys there are married (some for decades) or in relationships with girlfriends... in fact, with most of them being middle-aged, they chose to do foreskin restoration to improve sex with their SOs/spouses, and they say it's been a good thing for both them and their partners.

I have seen some LS-type stuff in intactivism, but at least on the place I'm on, it's actually fairly minimal, and I always point out that it's wrong and unfair when I do see it.

Also, since Lapin asked, here's how the practice got started en masse in America, and why. Basically, it's 19th-century quackery that doctors swore up and down would cure every manner of ill from epilepsy to hip problems....

Quote :
In cases of masturbation we must, I believe, break the habit by inducing such a condition of the parts as will cause too much local suffering to allow of the practice being continued. For this purpose, if the prepuce is long, we may circumcise the male patient with present and probably with future advantage; the operation, too, should not be performed under chloroform, so that the pain experienced may be associated with the habit we wish to eradicate.

Quote :
There can be no doubt of [masturbation's] injurious effect, and of the proneness to practice it on the part of children with defective brains. Circumcision should always be practiced. It may be necessary to make the genitals so sore by blistering fluids that pain results from attempts to rub the parts.

Quote :
Measures more radical than circumcision would, if public opinion permitted their adoption, be a true kindness to many patients of both sexes.


Quote :
Finally, circumcision probably tends to increase the power of sexual control. The only physiological advantage which the prepuce can be supposed to confer is that of maintaining the penis in a condition susceptible to more acute sensation than would otherwise exist. It may increase the pleasure of coition and the impulse to it: but these are advantages which in the present state of society can well be spared. If in their loss increase in sexual control should result, one should be thankful.
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SirDixonDongs
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:57 am

cocks
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Root Admin
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:41 am

This thread is now about how Malganis loves cocks.
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Malganis
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:50 am

Nihilist wrote:
This thread is now about how Malganis loves cocks.

Hey I can't help it if I do Razz
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vade
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:29 am

I'm not planning on doing it to my future/hypothetical son. I just don't see the point. It's kind of barbaric, in my opinion, even if it is done in the safety of a sanitized hospital.

He'll just have to learn to clean under there. It shouldn't be too bad.

Nihilist wrote:
I'll just sit over here and wait for someone to start touching mine.

*poke*
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Adagio
VileCorp's Muscly Woman-slave
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Join date: 2010-01-21

PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:58 am

Mr.Doobie wrote:
It's a fairly standard medical procedure that removes a flap of skin which is next to damn useless. And it's performed on babies who won't even remember the operation until they're older.

When. You mean when.

Now, I don't feel particularly strongly on the topic of circumcision, but I do abhor this particular argument. By that logic, you could argue that it's fine to, say, saw off somebody's arm without anesthetic, if you planned to erase their memory afterwards.

(No, not comparing circumcision to hacking off an arm. Just pointing out the inherent flaw in the argument. And the fact that the logical extreme is: "if it's okay to operate on a baby's penis simply because they won't remember it, what else is it okay to do if they won't remember it?")
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ZoZo
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:20 am

Once again I will restate my issue with routine circumcision of babies: there is no good reason to do it. Any of the reasons put forward can wait until the person is old enough to make the decision.

I am a strong believer in people having autonomy over their bodies. This applies even to usually minor cosmetic procedures that probably won't have any ill effect.
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Mr.Doobie
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:02 am

Adagio wrote:
Mr.Doobie wrote:
It's a fairly standard medical procedure that removes a flap of skin which is next to damn useless. And it's performed on babies who won't even remember the operation until they're older.

When. You mean when.

Now, I don't feel particularly strongly on the topic of circumcision, but I do abhor this particular argument. By that logic, you could argue that it's fine to, say, saw off somebody's arm without anesthetic, if you planned to erase their memory afterwards.

(No, not comparing circumcision to hacking off an arm. Just pointing out the inherent flaw in the argument. And the fact that the logical extreme is: "if it's okay to operate on a baby's penis simply because they won't remember it, what else is it okay to do if they won't remember it?")

Yes I did mean when. But I don't think the argument was that flawed. When I mentioned that, I was thinking about how, in the FGM thread, Malganis was putting up videos of children getting circumcised in, what I believe, to be an attempt at shocking and appalling us into agreeing with her. Kind of like those Pro-Lifers that squeak "Mommy? Why did you kill me?" at women who have gotten abortions.

But the issue is, the kid isn't even going to remember it. And it's not going to inhibit his life that much, like sawing off an arm or a leg or whatever other logical extremes you can throw at me. To me, it seems like removing the childs appendix at birth. I wouldn't think it's a big deal. The kid won't remember the operation, and they're getting rid of a useless hunk of flesh.

The argument works in a case such as this. Naturally it doesn't when you take it to logical extremes.
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ZoZo
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:56 am

The thing with the appendix is that once again it's completely pointless to do it routinely on babies, just in case there might be problems later.
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Jesus.
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:30 pm

ZoZo wrote:
The thing with the appendix is that once again it's completely pointless to do it routinely on babies, just in case there might be problems later.
Exactly. Either I never posted this when I think I did or no one reads my posts anymore, but I thought I posted an example about my brother. You know what phalanges look like without nails, right? Kinda weird/sick. Feet are ugly enough, why make it worse, yada yada. My brother has problems with his toenails growing ingrown. They get swollen, infected, and its not pretty, so one toenail he already had removed. Now, years and years later, his other toenail has started to do it. Now he likely has to get get another removal.

Now, why didnt we just remove both (it's the big toes) toenails when he was young? Easy. No real point. There was no indication that he WOULD have trouble with it. It was perfectly fine until now. It may just be a hunk of keratin and whatever else the nails are made of, but there was no reason to get the operation done to him just because there's a slim chance he might have issues with it later, and just because he wouldn't remember it. Now that its giving him issues, we can deal with it and that can be the end of it. No harm, no foul.
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ZoZo
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:15 pm

Thinking about that got me thinking about wisdom teeth. Wisdom teeth give loads of people problems later in life--a lot more than an appendix or a foreskin or toenails, etc.

By that token, surely one should remove the buds of these teeth at birth, before the kid is old enough to remember it?

Again, I personally would not advocate it; it's a decision to be made when older. Plus, preemptive removal doesn't really have any benefits when done to adults, so doing it to babies based on "possible problems" is thoroughly pointless.

Anyway, after that I searched the Cochrane Library for work on circumcision. For those who don't know, Cochrane reviews are the "gold standard" for clinical evidence. They take all the studies on a certain area and combine the findings to have a look at what actually works. There was only one that is particularly relevant here: Male circumcision for prevention of heterosexual acquisition of HIV in men

And it works. Circumcised men are less likely to catch HIV. Of course, a condom could also help prevent that. And the circumcisions were done on older men rather than babies.

So that's the best evidence we have about circumcision: an aggregate of lots of studies showing circumcised men are less likely to catch HIV in Africa when they've been circumcised as adults.

Will somebody please show me some evidence in support of circumcising babies routinely?

ETA: Also found a few studies showing that circumcised men have higher rates of other STIs as are more likely to engage in risky sexual behaviours. I'll withold judgment on that till I find a meta-analysis.

ETA again: No meta-analyses, boo. What does exist suggests that circumcision is also protective against ulcerative STIs (e.g. herpes, syphilis), but not against non-ulcerative ones (e.g. chlamydia, gonorrhoea, hep C). So if you're circumcised and her vagina is covered in sores, go right in. Uncut guys, you might want to skip out on that.
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grmblfjx
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:51 pm

I have a better example. Why don't we remove hymens at birth? Nobody can figure out what the point of that is, either.
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ZoZo
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:55 pm

But then how will we know if the woman is PURE AND MARRIAGEABLE?
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myeerah
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:02 pm

grmblfjx wrote:
I have a better example. Why don't we remove hymens at birth? Nobody can figure out what the point of that is, either.

Actually, why don't we remove hymens at birth? It'd make sex easier the first time, certainly.
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Jesus.
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:03 pm

myeerah wrote:
grmblfjx wrote:
I have a better example. Why don't we remove hymens at birth? Nobody can figure out what the point of that is, either.

Actually, why don't we remove hymens at birth? It'd make sex easier the first time, certainly.
You just answered your own question, you do realize that, right? :/
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Knorg
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PostSubject: Re: The Male Circumcision Thread   Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:57 pm

This thread is useless without pictures.
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