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| | Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] | |
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Penguin NO NOT THE BEEEEES


Join date: 2009-07-19 Location: Wild Gray Yonder
 | Subject: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:32 am | |
|  It just... it just doesn't make any sense. Darth Vader was more of the "heartless political figure sending troops into the meatgrinder" than a war vet remembering friends and comrades. He didn't have any. Hell, there's a good chance he Force-choked at least three of those dudes. Plus, you know, it lifts everything from a painting about the goddamn Vietnam War Memorial. It's out of character, it's tasteless, and yet not in a way that's lulz-worthy. Epic fail. |
|  | | myeerah Contributor


Join date: 2009-06-11 Age: 34
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:43 pm | |
| | Penguin wrote: | | and yet not in a way that's lulz-worthy. |
I don't know. I'm laughing at the little cleaner droid at his feet, myself. |
|  | | Root Admin Administrator


Join date: 2009-06-03 Age: 23 Location: You can't piss on hospitality.
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:54 pm | |
| Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I can see the whole idea of using Vader as a symbol for regret, like at the end of RotJ. As in, the Vietnam War Memorial is so beautiful and moving, it'd even get the worst of baddies to regret their actions.
Just a thought- but after a bunch of graduate reviews yesterday I've been defending worse bullshit art just to be contrarian, and this piece is actually better than most everything I saw that day. Doesn't try to be hoity-toity, and I'm a fan of using pop symbolism in my own work.
So, I guess it's a bad thing when something shows up in this subforum and it's better than 99% of what the graduate students at my school are doing. I'm a bit disappointed in them. |
|  | | Penguin NO NOT THE BEEEEES


Join date: 2009-07-19 Location: Wild Gray Yonder
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:09 pm | |
| | Nihilist wrote: | Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I can see the whole idea of using Vader as a symbol for regret, like at the end of RotJ. As in, the Vietnam War Memorial is so beautiful and moving, it'd even get the worst of baddies to regret their actions.
Just a thought- but after a bunch of graduate reviews yesterday I've been defending worse bullshit art just to be contrarian, and this piece is actually better than most everything I saw that day. Doesn't try to be hoity-toity, and I'm a fan of using pop symbolism in my own work.
So, I guess it's a bad thing when something shows up in this subforum and it's better than 99% of what the graduate students at my school are doing. I'm a bit disappointed in them. |
Funnily enough, I tried thinking of Vader after his RotJ redemption. And I still couldn't justify this image. Maybe it's because I've seen the one it's aping, where an old man touching the wall and his buddies from Vietnam are where the Imperials are in the wall. So I can't divorce it from the idea that whoever's leaning against the wall feels the intense loss from watching his friends and comrades in arms die in a needless war. Maybe I can see regret, but...
Well what I'm really getting at here is holy fuck what sort of shit were those students showing you.  |
|  | | Root Admin Administrator


Join date: 2009-06-03 Age: 23 Location: You can't piss on hospitality.
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:17 pm | |
| | Penguin wrote: | Well what I'm really getting at here is holy fuck what sort of shit were those students showing you.  |
Pictures of their freshly-trimmed groins, embroidered vaginas, sewn fabric vaginas, sculptures of vaginas, badly-photoshopped vaginas, shaved vaginas. It had to be Vagina Thursday, just had to be.
Some of the photos were awesome because it was like "Woo, I get to see Tammy naked!" but really now, using vaginas as allegory to everything, while they're that way in literature, is just.... mundane. You know? Like that whole room has this cisgendered idea that the REAL YOU IS THE NAKED YOU AND THIS IS ANTICOMMERCIALISM. Uh, no. You're aping Dove commercials. It's really nothing special if all a person is doing is vomiting up what culture's been shoving down their throats without new insight, without any voice of their own, without any indication during the critique that they even knew what the fuck they were doing besides "HURR I R EDGY WITH MY VAGINAS."
So overdone. But then, I'm not typical, and I can't relate to them, so maybe all their vagina talk about how blankets and badly photoshopped pubes are the essence of femininity is lost on me. I kind of don't like being the only person with a differing opinion on the symbolism, either, it's tiring.
And these are Masters' students! Fucking shit, man.  |
|  | | Chaltab Shitgobbling pissdrinker


Join date: 2009-07-20 Age: 24 Location: Outside the middle of nowhere
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:46 pm | |
| So, how do you feel about vaginas?
In all seriousness, the Vietnam Vader picture strikes me as kind of tasteless. Not offensive, but just wrongheaded. My initial reaction was a laugh at the completely inappropriate juxtaposition followed by an uncomfortable feeling that I shouldn't have laughed at it. And then of course when you consider that Vader killed his underlings, ruled by fear, and basically had no friends but Luke at the end of his life, it rings hollow in-universe. It would make more sense for Padme and Shmi to be there, since he actually cared about them. |
|  | | Root Admin Administrator


Join date: 2009-06-03 Age: 23 Location: You can't piss on hospitality.
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:04 pm | |
| | Chaltab wrote: | In all seriousness, the Vietnam Vader picture strikes me as kind of tasteless. Not offensive, but just wrongheaded. My initial reaction was a laugh at the completely inappropriate juxtaposition followed by an uncomfortable feeling that I shouldn't have laughed at it. And then of course when you consider that Vader killed his underlings, ruled by fear, and basically had no friends but Luke at the end of his life, it rings hollow in-universe. It would make more sense for Padme and Shmi to be there, since he actually cared about them. |
Unless one goes for the whole "I care for my soldiers" bit.
Padme and Shmi weren't his soldiers. It does ring hollow for me in a canonical sense, but if Vader is used in place of say, the president at the time who kept the soldiers in Vietnam, a losing war, Vader building the Death Star again, losing against the Rebel Alliance. But then, my knowledge of SW is mostly limited to the Old Trilogy and it only works if you don't go too deep into the canon and simply use Vader as iconographic symbolism for heartless government. Government sends troops out, killing its underlings. But going deeper into it in a canonical sense as opposed to an analogy, it doesn't work and that's where the disconnect comes in.
Hell I like vaginas. I would have been the same if all the pieces were of penises. It's just, I felt like a goddamn alien in there. Tends to happen, and I don't like being the only person going "Well, there are people who hate their genitalia, you know, not for cultural reasons but because it's not who they are. For some, being naked isn't what's real. Some people hide their dicks, others pack them, others bind, people take hormones, get implants, piercings, pump themselves, get tattoos, cut off the offending body parts at home with a knife- what's to say that isn't them, if you're denouncing outer influence? And this is why I find your work disconcerting. If you were going to explore all aspects of identity you're going to have to compare what it's like, the way you imagine yourself to be, as opposed to what everyone else sees you as, and deal with the incongruency in daily life."
Now, I take it not everyone is me. I only have my opinion not because I'm particularly smart, just because of how I am. I just hope it was interesting food for thought, because maybe nobody else would have ever brought it up. Hopefully someone starts to think outside their HURR GENITALS box and do something meaningful after this.
Last edited by Nihilist on Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:08 pm; edited 3 times in total |
|  | | Penguin NO NOT THE BEEEEES


Join date: 2009-07-19 Location: Wild Gray Yonder
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:14 pm | |
| Just a question in this context, and I will take no offense whatsoever at being corrected because I'm genuinely curious, but when it comes to being transgendered, how do you look at it? From my point of view as a straight cisman it seems that it is either a mental or physical illness: Either the body is built incorrectly for the mind, or vice versa.
The reason why I ask is that it seems fairly normal to me to associate nakedness with honesty, i.e. "the naked truth." (Whether the student is capable of properly conveying this is probably more of a matter of skill than anything else).
I'm struggling to put this into words, really. I mean, if someone is cisgendered, doesn't the metaphor hold up? I understand that it may not be a universal truth, but if it applies to them, what's the problem? |
|  | | Chaltab Shitgobbling pissdrinker


Join date: 2009-07-20 Age: 24 Location: Outside the middle of nowhere
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:21 pm | |
| I... can see how that would be frustrating. The idea of any person being defined by their genitals is bizarre to me. I tend to think of people being defined as how they act and the choices they make rather than what's between their legs.
Granted I'm a straight cisgendered male who has basically no aesthetic interest in the private bits of either sex, seeing them as only a means to an end. Maybe it's different if you come from a class of person traditionally discriminated against. |
|  | | Root Admin Administrator


Join date: 2009-06-03 Age: 23 Location: You can't piss on hospitality.
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:24 pm | |
| | Penguin wrote: | Just a question in this context, and I will take no offense whatsoever at being corrected because I'm genuinely curious, but when it comes to being transgendered, how do you look at it? From my point of view as a straight cisman it seems that it is either a mental or physical illness: Either the body is built incorrectly for the mind, or vice versa.
The reason why I ask is that it seems fairly normal to me to associate nakedness with honesty, i.e. "the naked truth." (Whether the student is capable of properly conveying this is probably more of a matter of skill than anything else).
I'm struggling to put this into words, really. I mean, if someone is cisgendered, doesn't the metaphor hold up? I understand that it may not be a universal truth, but if it applies to them, what's the problem? |
I see it as the body is built incorrectly, body has to be fixed. So, when there's this term being thrown around "The Naked Truth", I can't parse it because the way I am naked, is not an honest description of who I really am, so therefore it's not truth. Instead there's this duality that someday, it will be the truth, but now it's not, please take my word for it. It also extends to the whole idea (I'm not saying this is real, mind you, just tossing it out there) that people have... what's the word... a soul or inner spirit, and that people should judge a person by what's on the inside as opposed to the outside anyway. But tell them your soul doesn't match and it throws everything askew.
It's just, yeah, the metaphor holds up for them, and that's fine, I just wanted to let them know that not everyone feels that way. That's what critiques are- you debate whether something is conveyed properly and everyone, with their own experiences, sees work through a filter of their own experience. I can see why you both find this tasteless, though. Perfectly within reason. No answer is right or wrong, just effective vs. ineffective. And if it's effective at conveying something to 99% of the viewers, it's okay. It's just that also, people make work that <1% of the viewers can understand as well, and if the artist decides to make something deliberately confusing that only they can understand, they'd better be able to defend their view from all differing viewpoints. Because in the end, it's their work, nobody else will do it for them, and they're going to have to become more socially aware because it's just another weapon in their utility belt of tricks, another definition to define for themselves. Whether they do well or not in the future has no bearing on whether everyone can look at it and understand. Just on how well they can sell themselves. And that's the most important thing.
edit: so back to Darth Vader. This kind of extends to him in a way, because it doesn't look ignorant to me. Or at least it was done with a purpose in mind, and there are artists out there who are IRL trolls- like to mindscrew. Some do it because they want to genuinely shed new light on something, others are simply trolls. The latter tend to get weeded out pretty quickly if they can't defend their work, because they lack the social awareness it takes to charismatically defend themselves in the line of fire, with 50 people looking at their work with a fine-toothed comb.To me, I see how it can be successful, just on how much discussion it can provoke as well. And sometimes, whether their work is right or wrong, if the objective was to stir up a good discussion/debate over its own (in)effectiveness based on multiple viewpoints, then it's successful in that respect. And that's why I believe the choice of pop culture icon in combination with the contrasting, more real Vietnam Memorial was intentional intelligent commentary, whether tasteful or not.
Last edited by Nihilist on Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:55 am; edited 7 times in total |
|  | | Jesus. Knight of the Bleach


Join date: 2009-11-16 Age: 21 Location: Somewhere in the past, I blinked.
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:48 am | |
| Derailed thread of awesome? |
|  | | Flashover Drive-by Camwhore


Join date: 2010-04-24 Age: 34 Location: Mars
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:12 pm | |
| I'm not sure what to think, except to say try not to focus on cannon, 'cause hell, Lucas threw THAT out the window several times in episodes 1-3... The artwork is very well drawn, as for tastelessness, it's bad, but not nearly as bad as some other art I've seen, trust me. Rule 34 anyone, now THERE is some tasteless art. |
|  | | Harley Quinn hyenaholic NO NOT THE BEEEEES


Join date: 2009-06-12 Age: 27
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:31 pm | |
| To be honest, marginally tasteless though it may be, there's a lot worse and more offensive shit out there. This artist just didn't take the deaths of hundreds of thousands of brave men seriously. |
|  | | grmblfjx Hot and Botherer


Join date: 2009-06-10
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:05 pm | |
| | Nihilist wrote: | | Some people hide their dicks, others pack them, others bind, people take hormones, get implants, piercings, pump themselves, get tattoos, cut off the offending body parts at home with a knife- what's to say that isn't them, if you're denouncing outer influence? And this is why I find your work disconcerting. If you were going to explore all aspects of identity you're going to have to compare what it's like, the way you imagine yourself to be, as opposed to what everyone else sees you as, and deal with the incongruency in daily life. |
This is very fair enough and everything. Nonetheless, my main issue with it is, the OH I KNOW I'LL SHOW MY UGLIES I'M SO EDGY gets a groan and an eyeroll out of me at best.* I mean, everyone can do Shocking By Crassness. In my eyes, if you don't need crassness to get a reaction from people, that's when you start being an artist.
If I'm not making sense, blame the bubbly.
*Favorite DA quote ever: "You have such an artistic vagina, I widh I could hug it." Remember Hot Pink, anyone? |
|  | | Ashandari Drive-by Camwhore


Join date: 2010-08-08
 | Subject: Re: Darth Vader: He [i]cares.[/i] Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:55 pm | |
| Deep vader picture...... oddly comforting to know a mass murderer of the ENTIRE planet of alderaan is feeling sad about a few clones.... kinda feels like this pic is another to be tossed into the void |
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